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Post by rodney on Sept 30, 2009 19:39:56 GMT -5
I've been having a discussion about this with some "skeptics" at forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=154146. Note, in particular, Post # 20, # 27, and # 29. I would be interested in hearing from anyone here regarding what you think happened to the Cyclops. Thanks.
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Nebka
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by Nebka on Sept 30, 2009 23:42:18 GMT -5
That is hard to say what ever happened to the ship i think it happened hast as to not get off any message at all
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Post by bobcouttie on Oct 3, 2009 5:11:04 GMT -5
Points to bear in mind, she disappeared during the first world war from what was then a British possession and about a year after the US entered the war. It might be productive to rake through German naval records of the period.
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Post by rodney on Oct 3, 2009 19:30:12 GMT -5
Points to bear in mind, she disappeared during the first world war from what was then a British possession and about a year after the US entered the war. It might be productive to rake through German naval records of the period. The official Navy statement was: Since her departure [Barbadoes] there has been no trace of the vessel. The disappearance of this ship has been one of the most baffling mysteries in the annals of the Navy, all attempts to locate her having proved unsuc-- cessful. Many theories have been advanced, but none that satisfactorily accounts for her disappearance. There were no enemy submarines in the western Atlantic at that time, and in December 1918 every effort was made to obtain from German sources regarding the disappearance of the vessel. Information was requested from all attachés in Europe with the result that is is definite that neither German U-boats or German mines came into the question. See www.bermuda-triangle.org/html/cyclops_pg3.html
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Post by bobcouttie on Oct 9, 2009 8:13:59 GMT -5
December 1918, when there was still a war on, although official actions ended on November 11. What investigations have been done since? The only mystery in this case is which of the many options - given her poor condition and the cargo she carried.
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Post by rodney on Oct 9, 2009 9:02:57 GMT -5
December 1918, when there was still a war on, although official actions ended on November 11. What investigations have been done since? The only mystery in this case is which of the many options - given her poor condition and the cargo she carried. The Navy investigation considered and rejected the possibilities that you raise.
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Post by bobcouttie on Oct 9, 2009 20:45:15 GMT -5
It should be remembered that ships can founder very quickly, sinking in as little as 10 seconds. In the case of a capsize, those on the bridge have less than a minute to realise what's going on and react to it. Even today, with not only wireless but EPIRBs that should trigger automatically when the vessel goes down, it is not especially unusual for a vessel to sink with neither a radio distress signal or an EPIRB signal, and little debris left floating.
Bear in mind that three out of four ships built to that design were lost, including Cyclops. This strongly suggests a weakness in design that would be exacerbated by cargo shifting or liquefaction. Much more is known today about such phenomena than at the time she foundered.
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Post by Gian on Oct 9, 2009 21:27:12 GMT -5
What 4 vessels? Proteus and Nereus were torpedoed in the beginning of WWII. Their sinking had nothing to do with design. There was no war on in December 1918. December is when Admiral Robison's team was their geting information from Admiral Goette. The Cyclops vanished in March 1918, and Robison confirmed no German vessels or mines could ahve been involved.
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Post by bobcouttie on Oct 12, 2009 10:22:41 GMT -5
Four proteus class ships, colliers, were built. Proteus, Cyclops, Nereus, and Jupiter. I'm not aware of any U-Boat claims for Proteus or Nereus according to my US Navy history contacts who tell me no wrecks have been found nor any confirmation that they were torpedoed. Only the Jupiter lived long enough to be scrapped.
World War 1 ended with the signing of the treaty of Versailles in June 1919. In December 1918 the Germans were fighting for their existence in negotiations in which the Allies were determined the destroy German power forever, Germany was being required to accept all guilt for the war and the Germans were trying to keep what they could. Admitting responsibility for the deaths of more than 300 people, most of them civilians, would have strengthened the allies' hand and given the US an stronger hand in the negotiations, something Goette would have been well aware of.
1) You have confirmed that no search of German records has been conducted since 1918, which was not the best time to get the whole truth out of the Germans.
2) Nobody has looked for Goette's papers.
3) My point in bring to light the above is to show that there simply has not been serious research since 1918.
4) My view is that Cyclops foundered in a storm. A common fate even today especially when there are design or construction shortfalls - I'm sure you're familiar with MSC Napoli. I'm not quite sure why the sinking of an unseaworthy, or at least questionably seaworthy ship, carrying a cargo given to shifting and/or liquefaction, counts as a 'mystery'
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Post by rodney on Oct 13, 2009 15:11:57 GMT -5
My view is that Cyclops foundered in a storm. When and where?
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Post by Gian on Oct 13, 2009 17:50:01 GMT -5
The Armistice was signed on 11 November 1918. The Cyclops had no bearing on the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. Had it been sunk by U-boats, it merely would have been a legitimate war loss, and the Germans could not be blamed in excess of the thousands of other sinkings. Richard O. Momsen, of the US consulate at Rio, sent a detailed letter to the State Department and the Navy on how the Cyclops was loaded. Her dunnage was ample and included floor and side dunnage, so that there was no possibility of shifting cargo. BTW, the Jupiter was never scrapped. It was turned into the first famous US carrier, Langley. www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/carriers/histories/cv01-langley/cv01-langley.html
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Post by rickyv419 on Oct 15, 2009 8:57:58 GMT -5
I remember reading in Kusche's book I believe about a former Navy diver named Dean Hawes who found a ship bearing resemblance to the Cyclops and when a different group went down they said it looked "different". Perhaps these loran numbers can be found and the ship checked out again.
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Post by rodney on Oct 15, 2009 20:17:46 GMT -5
I remember reading in Kusche's book I believe about a former Navy diver named Dean Hawes who found a ship bearing resemblance to the Cyclops and when a different group went down they said it looked "different". Perhaps these loran numbers can be found and the ship checked out again. This is one of many of Kusche's speculations that proved unfounded. As I discussed on the James Randi Forums (referenced in the Opening Post): "What of the sunken ship discovered in 1968 off the Norfolk coast? 'A different wreck was located and nothing resembling the Cyclops was found.'" See June 16, 2005 post of 'goindwn' at boards.history.com/topic/Deep-Sea-Detectives/Uss-Cyclops/100033294&start=30
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Post by Gian on Oct 20, 2009 9:46:13 GMT -5
There is evidence that the Cyclops went down in the Old Bahama Channel. The Navy was actually directed to wreckage found by a small boat captain, Fraser. He found it at the Riding Rocks south of Bimini and it included half of what appeared to be the captain's gig with CYCLO still stenciled on it. There was lots of wood (dunnage), a log book, a smashed brass instrument like a "franklin bouy," etc.
The Navy took this quite seriously and even sent Admiral Decker out to find it, but he actually had the wrong island and when he wrote to his surperiors it was clear there was a mistake in locating the spot where Fraser said he had seen the wreckage in 1920 (1.5 years after the Cyclops had vanished).
Fraser even went to the Great Lakes Training Station and tried to mark on a map for officers there. When the Navy later sought Fraser for more clarification, he seems to have disappeared.
What's interesting is that Fraser had started this all by making only a casual report in Kansas City as he was sailing back to Chicago from the Bahamas. The Navy went bizerk to find the truth of it. I don't think Fraser expected all the commotion. Was, in fact, our dear Captain Fraser a rum runner? He saw fit to disappear when things got too hot, and the Navy was quite sure of the truth of his story from certain things he incidently said.
Part of this is in my upcoming book "Hell Ship" (shameless plug) ;D
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Post by bobcouttie on Oct 20, 2009 20:30:08 GMT -5
Let me, then, make a shameless plug for the Hellships Memorial in Subic Bay, Philippines, the only memorial in the world to all those who were victims of the Japanese hellships of WW2.
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